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	<title>Comments on: Equal marriage:  a shifting tide</title>
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	<link>http://blog.smartmemes.com/2009/06/equal-marriage-a-shifting-tide/</link>
	<description>Thoughts that seemed like a good idea at the time</description>
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		<title>By: Dwight Williams</title>
		<link>http://blog.smartmemes.com/2009/06/equal-marriage-a-shifting-tide/comment-page-1/#comment-861</link>
		<dc:creator>Dwight Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jun 2009 14:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.smartmemes.com/?p=1182#comment-861</guid>
		<description>For anyone curious about that particular Act of Parliament: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Marriage_Act</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For anyone curious about that particular Act of Parliament: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Marriage_Act"  rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Marriage_Act</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dwight Williams</title>
		<link>http://blog.smartmemes.com/2009/06/equal-marriage-a-shifting-tide/comment-page-1/#comment-853</link>
		<dc:creator>Dwight Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 23:44:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.smartmemes.com/?p=1182#comment-853</guid>
		<description>And, need we remind anyone, the sky has yet to cave in up here in Canada over the matter after...how long has it been now? Half a decade? More, since the Civil Marriages Act?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And, need we remind anyone, the sky has yet to cave in up here in Canada over the matter after&#8230;how long has it been now? Half a decade? More, since the Civil Marriages Act?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris J. Miller</title>
		<link>http://blog.smartmemes.com/2009/06/equal-marriage-a-shifting-tide/comment-page-1/#comment-841</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris J. Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 19:34:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.smartmemes.com/?p=1182#comment-841</guid>
		<description>Indeed, the fact that solid-blue Illinois is lagging so far behind not only the northeastern states but even neighboring Iowa is a bit of an embarrassment at this point. Knowing how things operate in Springfield, though, I wouldn&#039;t start holding my breath any time soon. (Although I don&#039;t doubt Greg Harris&#039; sincerity and commitment. He&#039;s spent a lot of time banging his head against some pretty solid walls down there.)

If I were betting on the next domino to fall, I&#039;d keep my eyes on New York.

I think the real, Niagara-level tipping point will come, though, when enough states acknowledge these rights to prompt the &lt;b&gt;national&lt;/b&gt; government to see which way the wind is blowing and scrap the DOMA. State-level rights are important, but they&#039;re not the whole ball game:  it&#039;s critical to have (A) mandatory reciprocal recognition in other states, and (B) federal rights and benefits like, e.g., Social Security. 

The nonprofits (including EQIL and HRC) do a decent job at least in terms of keeping (certain) issues in the spotlight, but expecting any one of them to really go out on a limb to make things happen is setting oneself up for disappointment. (And yeah, like every other nonprofit I know, they do spend a &lt;b&gt;lot&lt;/b&gt; of time on those fancy fundraisers. They&#039;re a necessary evil, but sometimes the tail can start wagging the dog.) What legislative change really takes is &lt;b&gt;broad&lt;/b&gt; public support, not just the usual organizational suspects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, the fact that solid-blue Illinois is lagging so far behind not only the northeastern states but even neighboring Iowa is a bit of an embarrassment at this point. Knowing how things operate in Springfield, though, I wouldn&#8217;t start holding my breath any time soon. (Although I don&#8217;t doubt Greg Harris&#8217; sincerity and commitment. He&#8217;s spent a lot of time banging his head against some pretty solid walls down there.)</p>
<p>If I were betting on the next domino to fall, I&#8217;d keep my eyes on New York.</p>
<p>I think the real, Niagara-level tipping point will come, though, when enough states acknowledge these rights to prompt the <b>national</b> government to see which way the wind is blowing and scrap the DOMA. State-level rights are important, but they&#8217;re not the whole ball game:  it&#8217;s critical to have (A) mandatory reciprocal recognition in other states, and (B) federal rights and benefits like, e.g., Social Security. </p>
<p>The nonprofits (including EQIL and HRC) do a decent job at least in terms of keeping (certain) issues in the spotlight, but expecting any one of them to really go out on a limb to make things happen is setting oneself up for disappointment. (And yeah, like every other nonprofit I know, they do spend a <b>lot</b> of time on those fancy fundraisers. They&#8217;re a necessary evil, but sometimes the tail can start wagging the dog.) What legislative change really takes is <b>broad</b> public support, not just the usual organizational suspects.</p>
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		<title>By: Hal Shipman</title>
		<link>http://blog.smartmemes.com/2009/06/equal-marriage-a-shifting-tide/comment-page-1/#comment-840</link>
		<dc:creator>Hal Shipman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 18:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.smartmemes.com/?p=1182#comment-840</guid>
		<description>Well, I&#039;m getting pretty pissed off at the gay &quot;political establishment&quot; for this.

IL Rep. Greg Harris and Equality Illinois appear more than happy to laud themselves over having gotten IL&#039;s civil unions legislation through committee and the Senate, but couldn&#039;t pull the trigger to actually bring it to a vote in the House.  In the meantime, there are now ELEVEN other states in which my health care and property rights are better protected than they are in supposedly Democratic Illinois.  Soon to be thirteen.

The further down the list Illinois gets, the more shameful it is.  We&#039;re supposed to be a progressive state?  If they didn&#039;t have the votes to get it passed, then Harris, Garcia and EQIL simply aren&#039;t doing their jobs well enough.  If Nevada is further along the track than you, you&#039;ve fucked up.

Add to this mix the recent reports that the Human Rights Campaign (HRC) is actually campaigning AGAINST the legislative repeal of Don&#039;t Ask, Don&#039;t Tell, because it isn&#039;t in the correct sequence in its legislative agenda.

These groups are spending too much effort on their cocktail party and fancy dress ball fundraising and are falling behind the times.  Pheh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I&#8217;m getting pretty pissed off at the gay &#8220;political establishment&#8221; for this.</p>
<p>IL Rep. Greg Harris and Equality Illinois appear more than happy to laud themselves over having gotten IL&#8217;s civil unions legislation through committee and the Senate, but couldn&#8217;t pull the trigger to actually bring it to a vote in the House.  In the meantime, there are now ELEVEN other states in which my health care and property rights are better protected than they are in supposedly Democratic Illinois.  Soon to be thirteen.</p>
<p>The further down the list Illinois gets, the more shameful it is.  We&#8217;re supposed to be a progressive state?  If they didn&#8217;t have the votes to get it passed, then Harris, Garcia and EQIL simply aren&#8217;t doing their jobs well enough.  If Nevada is further along the track than you, you&#8217;ve fucked up.</p>
<p>Add to this mix the recent reports that the Human Rights Campaign (HRC) is actually campaigning AGAINST the legislative repeal of Don&#8217;t Ask, Don&#8217;t Tell, because it isn&#8217;t in the correct sequence in its legislative agenda.</p>
<p>These groups are spending too much effort on their cocktail party and fancy dress ball fundraising and are falling behind the times.  Pheh.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris J. Miller</title>
		<link>http://blog.smartmemes.com/2009/06/equal-marriage-a-shifting-tide/comment-page-1/#comment-833</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris J. Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Jun 2009 04:44:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.smartmemes.com/?p=1182#comment-833</guid>
		<description>Well, yeah. The classic &quot;slippery slope&quot; argument is a fallacy right from the outset. It does come up, but perhaps I optimistically assume that people will automatically &lt;b&gt;recognize&lt;/b&gt; and &lt;b&gt;dismiss&lt;/b&gt; it as transparently dishonest. (All one really has to do is point to the obvious distinguishing criterion, which you mentioned, of &quot;consenting adults,&quot; and this one goes down in flames...)

A &lt;b&gt;slightly&lt;/b&gt; more sophisticated version I&#039;ve run across is the argument that couples who aren&#039;t gay would be encouraged to enter into &quot;sham marriages&quot; just for the sake of, say, insurance benefits. Because, y&#039;know, (A) straight people &lt;b&gt;never&lt;/b&gt; enter into marriage lightly, and (B) straight men and women are perfectly happy to let all their friends and family think they&#039;re gay if there&#039;s profit in it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, yeah. The classic &#8220;slippery slope&#8221; argument is a fallacy right from the outset. It does come up, but perhaps I optimistically assume that people will automatically <b>recognize</b> and <b>dismiss</b> it as transparently dishonest. (All one really has to do is point to the obvious distinguishing criterion, which you mentioned, of &#8220;consenting adults,&#8221; and this one goes down in flames&#8230;)</p>
<p>A <b>slightly</b> more sophisticated version I&#8217;ve run across is the argument that couples who aren&#8217;t gay would be encouraged to enter into &#8220;sham marriages&#8221; just for the sake of, say, insurance benefits. Because, y&#8217;know, (A) straight people <b>never</b> enter into marriage lightly, and (B) straight men and women are perfectly happy to let all their friends and family think they&#8217;re gay if there&#8217;s profit in it.</p>
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		<title>By: RAB</title>
		<link>http://blog.smartmemes.com/2009/06/equal-marriage-a-shifting-tide/comment-page-1/#comment-832</link>
		<dc:creator>RAB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 19:25:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.smartmemes.com/?p=1182#comment-832</guid>
		<description>One other recurring argument not on your list -- though it might be considered a corollary to a couple of them -- is the &quot;slippery slope&quot; argument, i.e., &quot;Where do we draw the line?  If we allow marriage between two consenting adults of the same gender, this means we will be unavoidably forced to allow adults to marry children and pets and houseplants.&quot;  This might be the most transparently dishonest tactic of all, because it exists &lt;i&gt;solely&lt;/i&gt; to invite the listener to think of homosexuality in the same sentence as pedophilia, bestiality, or...um, floraphilia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One other recurring argument not on your list &#8212; though it might be considered a corollary to a couple of them &#8212; is the &#8220;slippery slope&#8221; argument, i.e., &#8220;Where do we draw the line?  If we allow marriage between two consenting adults of the same gender, this means we will be unavoidably forced to allow adults to marry children and pets and houseplants.&#8221;  This might be the most transparently dishonest tactic of all, because it exists <i>solely</i> to invite the listener to think of homosexuality in the same sentence as pedophilia, bestiality, or&#8230;um, floraphilia.</p>
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