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	<title>Comments on: A very lopsided debate</title>
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	<description>Thoughts that seemed like a good idea at the time</description>
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		<title>By: Dwight Williams</title>
		<link>http://blog.smartmemes.com/2008/09/a-very-lopsided-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator>Dwight Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:10:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.smartmemes.com/?p=187#comment-36</guid>
		<description>How many of those workers are going to lose everything if this plan - or something better - is tossed into the legislative shredder again?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How many of those workers are going to lose everything if this plan &#8211; or something better &#8211; is tossed into the legislative shredder again?</p>
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		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://blog.smartmemes.com/2008/09/a-very-lopsided-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 13:38:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.smartmemes.com/?p=187#comment-32</guid>
		<description>I remain skeptical, not least because needing to show that one is in the mainstream is already a losing proposition, insofar as &quot;independents&quot; respond to pseudo-rebellious populist appeals. The swing voter is presumptively McCain&#039;s to lose, and I saw nothing in the debate indicating Obama is making any progress there. The national polls all have him in the lead—except the ones covering battleground states, where the election will be decided. I wouldn&#039;t count on Florida seniors, who, in addition to being fuzzy on how to vote correctly, overwhelmingly think Obama is Osama (no kidding!). 

Obama&#039;s unconscionable support for the bailout definitively deprives him of all credibility as being &quot;on the side of the worker,&quot; which has been his main selling point. However one reads the bracelet, McCain owns that issue, at least among swing voters. Obama&#039;s last hope may be that Palin does not pull out and looks like the idiot she is in her debate with Biden. But he has to take care not to insult her, and that&#039;s a tall order for him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remain skeptical, not least because needing to show that one is in the mainstream is already a losing proposition, insofar as &#8220;independents&#8221; respond to pseudo-rebellious populist appeals. The swing voter is presumptively McCain&#8217;s to lose, and I saw nothing in the debate indicating Obama is making any progress there. The national polls all have him in the lead—except the ones covering battleground states, where the election will be decided. I wouldn&#8217;t count on Florida seniors, who, in addition to being fuzzy on how to vote correctly, overwhelmingly think Obama is Osama (no kidding!). </p>
<p>Obama&#8217;s unconscionable support for the bailout definitively deprives him of all credibility as being &#8220;on the side of the worker,&#8221; which has been his main selling point. However one reads the bracelet, McCain owns that issue, at least among swing voters. Obama&#8217;s last hope may be that Palin does not pull out and looks like the idiot she is in her debate with Biden. But he has to take care not to insult her, and that&#8217;s a tall order for him.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris J. Miller</title>
		<link>http://blog.smartmemes.com/2008/09/a-very-lopsided-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris J. Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Sep 2008 19:03:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.smartmemes.com/?p=187#comment-31</guid>
		<description>Pay attention: I watched the debate at a museum, not a bar. And Luntz&#039;s group was explicitly made up of previously undecided voters, split evenly between those who voted for Bush and for Kerry four years ago. And it&#039;s true that Obama&#039;s numbers have surged among women recently—but hey, wasn&#039;t that a demographic he was supposed to have &quot;trouble&quot; with just a few weeks ago? If he&#039;s now coming across as attractive and comforting (vs. elitist and alienating), then good for him. (BTW, he&#039;s gained ground among men, too. And senior citizens.) 

At any rate, the &quot;many eyes&quot; I referred to were scattered among god-knows-how-many comments I read yesterday morning on scads of discussion sites of every political stripe. The conventional wisdom pre-debate was that Obama tends to come across as &quot;professorial&quot; and needed to try harder to show passion and empathy, while McCain comes across as touchy and impulsive (at least lately) and needed to demonstrate that he was grounded. Obama needed to show that he was within the political &quot;mainstream,&quot; not too risky or scary (esp. to older, white voters), while McCain needed to show that he wasn&#039;t entirely conventional, to avoid being just a creature of the Bush administration. By and large, Obama hit these marks... and McCain didn&#039;t. 

As for reactions to specific sound bites... well, I guess that&#039;s subjective; I&#039;m sure your reaction was genuine. But I can assure you I&#039;m not the only one who thought Obama owned the bracelet exchange. IMHO it was a sharp and effective retort that undermined McCain&#039;s implicit message that military families side with him, and made the important point that not all of them want us to stay in Iraq. Obama also made his point quickly and clearly, whereas McCain&#039;s anecdote had rambled painfully.

McCain&#039;s in a box now. He no doubt has scads of advisers telling him that in debate #2, he&#039;ll have to take pains to look directly at Obama and be nice to him—IOW, exactly the opposite of what comes naturally to him. And that&#039;s what people will be watching for. Remember how well it worked for Gore in 2000 to try to change his demeanor from one debate to the next?...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pay attention: I watched the debate at a museum, not a bar. And Luntz&#8217;s group was explicitly made up of previously undecided voters, split evenly between those who voted for Bush and for Kerry four years ago. And it&#8217;s true that Obama&#8217;s numbers have surged among women recently—but hey, wasn&#8217;t that a demographic he was supposed to have &#8220;trouble&#8221; with just a few weeks ago? If he&#8217;s now coming across as attractive and comforting (vs. elitist and alienating), then good for him. (BTW, he&#8217;s gained ground among men, too. And senior citizens.) </p>
<p>At any rate, the &#8220;many eyes&#8221; I referred to were scattered among god-knows-how-many comments I read yesterday morning on scads of discussion sites of every political stripe. The conventional wisdom pre-debate was that Obama tends to come across as &#8220;professorial&#8221; and needed to try harder to show passion and empathy, while McCain comes across as touchy and impulsive (at least lately) and needed to demonstrate that he was grounded. Obama needed to show that he was within the political &#8220;mainstream,&#8221; not too risky or scary (esp. to older, white voters), while McCain needed to show that he wasn&#8217;t entirely conventional, to avoid being just a creature of the Bush administration. By and large, Obama hit these marks&#8230; and McCain didn&#8217;t. </p>
<p>As for reactions to specific sound bites&#8230; well, I guess that&#8217;s subjective; I&#8217;m sure your reaction was genuine. But I can assure you I&#8217;m not the only one who thought Obama owned the bracelet exchange. IMHO it was a sharp and effective retort that undermined McCain&#8217;s implicit message that military families side with him, and made the important point that not all of them want us to stay in Iraq. Obama also made his point quickly and clearly, whereas McCain&#8217;s anecdote had rambled painfully.</p>
<p>McCain&#8217;s in a box now. He no doubt has scads of advisers telling him that in debate #2, he&#8217;ll have to take pains to look directly at Obama and be nice to him—IOW, exactly the opposite of what comes naturally to him. And that&#8217;s what people will be watching for. Remember how well it worked for Gore in 2000 to try to change his demeanor from one debate to the next?&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://blog.smartmemes.com/2008/09/a-very-lopsided-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 21:08:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.smartmemes.com/?p=187#comment-30</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I&#039;ve seen most of this, especially the Luntz bit (on Huffington Post). Note that the guy who thought McCain is &quot;a strong leader&quot; is the prototypical swing voter; the ones who liked Obama were women who probably leaned in his direction already, or found him attractive and comforting. But again, the election is now about a very thin but decisive slice of the demographic pie, and if they vote, and vote McCain, Obama loses, period. And that slice is pretty &quot;20th century,&quot; too. (Whose &quot;many eyes&quot; are you invoking? The group at the bar again? I&#039;m already for Obama, and it looked to me like he just couldn&#039;t match the experience argument, whatever the century.)

FWIW, I cringed when Obama said &quot;I have a bracelet, too, John.&quot; He came off glib about soldiers dying and mothers suffering, and looked as if he thought collecting symbols is equivalent to commanding the respect of those handing them out. That was nearly a disastrous moment; he just barely salvaged it with the explanation of what the bracelet meant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I&#8217;ve seen most of this, especially the Luntz bit (on Huffington Post). Note that the guy who thought McCain is &#8220;a strong leader&#8221; is the prototypical swing voter; the ones who liked Obama were women who probably leaned in his direction already, or found him attractive and comforting. But again, the election is now about a very thin but decisive slice of the demographic pie, and if they vote, and vote McCain, Obama loses, period. And that slice is pretty &#8220;20th century,&#8221; too. (Whose &#8220;many eyes&#8221; are you invoking? The group at the bar again? I&#8217;m already for Obama, and it looked to me like he just couldn&#8217;t match the experience argument, whatever the century.)</p>
<p>FWIW, I cringed when Obama said &#8220;I have a bracelet, too, John.&#8221; He came off glib about soldiers dying and mothers suffering, and looked as if he thought collecting symbols is equivalent to commanding the respect of those handing them out. That was nearly a disastrous moment; he just barely salvaged it with the explanation of what the bracelet meant.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris J. Miller</title>
		<link>http://blog.smartmemes.com/2008/09/a-very-lopsided-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris J. Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 20:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.smartmemes.com/?p=187#comment-29</guid>
		<description>I think you give McCain way too much credit. I&#039;ve now looked at quite a bit of the media coverage (samples &lt;a href=&quot;http ://snipurl.com/3w644&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=11439&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;), and the *best* anyone is saying for McCain is that it was a draw -- and that&#039;s a minority view and, as you note, less than he needed.

McCain&#039;s references to all his travels didn&#039;t &quot;kill&quot;; in many eyes they just reminded people how &quot;20th century&quot; and &quot;cold war&quot; he was. (As did references to Brezhnev, SDI, etc.) If you&#039;re looking for attacks that scored points, look to Obama&#039;s reminder of McCain&#039;s perplexing remark about the president of *Spain*, or his cutting &quot;I have a bracelet too, John.&quot;

At any rate, the &lt;a href=&quot;http ://snipurl.com/3w630&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;CNN poll&lt;/a&gt; gives the same result as the CBS one. So does Frank Luntz&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http ://snipurl.com/3w63i&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;focus group&lt;/a&gt; (on Fox, yet!) of undecided voters. 

And remember, to the &quot;undecided&quot; voter, it&#039;s about character and disposition more than issues. The dominant point I&#039;ve seen everywhere this morning is that McCain refused to look at Obama, for whatever reason -- condescending? contemptuous? afraid? -- and generally came across as ill-at-ease. Cranky vs. cool, grumpy vs. gracious -- that&#039;s the emerging narrative.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you give McCain way too much credit. I&#8217;ve now looked at quite a bit of the media coverage (samples <a href="http ://snipurl.com/3w644"  rel="nofollow">here</a> and <a href="http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=11439"  rel="nofollow">here</a>), and the *best* anyone is saying for McCain is that it was a draw &#8212; and that&#8217;s a minority view and, as you note, less than he needed.</p>
<p>McCain&#8217;s references to all his travels didn&#8217;t &#8220;kill&#8221;; in many eyes they just reminded people how &#8220;20th century&#8221; and &#8220;cold war&#8221; he was. (As did references to Brezhnev, SDI, etc.) If you&#8217;re looking for attacks that scored points, look to Obama&#8217;s reminder of McCain&#8217;s perplexing remark about the president of *Spain*, or his cutting &#8220;I have a bracelet too, John.&#8221;</p>
<p>At any rate, the <a href="http ://snipurl.com/3w630"  rel="nofollow">CNN poll</a> gives the same result as the CBS one. So does Frank Luntz&#8217;s <a href="http ://snipurl.com/3w63i"  rel="nofollow">focus group</a> (on Fox, yet!) of undecided voters. </p>
<p>And remember, to the &#8220;undecided&#8221; voter, it&#8217;s about character and disposition more than issues. The dominant point I&#8217;ve seen everywhere this morning is that McCain refused to look at Obama, for whatever reason &#8212; condescending? contemptuous? afraid? &#8212; and generally came across as ill-at-ease. Cranky vs. cool, grumpy vs. gracious &#8212; that&#8217;s the emerging narrative.</p>
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		<title>By: michael</title>
		<link>http://blog.smartmemes.com/2008/09/a-very-lopsided-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Sep 2008 18:59:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.smartmemes.com/?p=187#comment-28</guid>
		<description>Okay, now I *know* you&#039;ve lost your capacity to judge these things impartially. I watched the debate at home, by myself, on public TV (so without any extraneous graphics or data). It was, at best, a draw. Now, a draw for Obama on foreign policy is a win, so this is nothing to sneeze at. But McCain was much more coherent than you seem to think, and his attacks on Obama were pointed and effective; Obama seldom had an appropriate response. He continued to permit McCain to determine the terrain on which the Iraq argument would be waged, rather than changing the terms from when and how to leave the war—a losing framework for anyone who isn&#039;t a vet—to casting the situation as a wasteful and interminable nation-building exercise (which would require McCain himself to set conditions for success and a timetable for leaving). McCain killed with his endless reminders that Obama had not gone to the strategically relevant places or met with the relevant leaders. All Obama could do was appear on the ball, which he did nicely and which probably accounts for the positive impression he left. But the debate was aimed squarely at the middle-aged, middl-class white men who, it has now become clear, see McCain as &quot;a strong leader&quot; and don&#039;t get Obama. These are the people in Ohio, Florida and Pennsylvania Obama needs to win over or persuade to stay home. I doubt he made any progress on that count last night. 

As for the instant polls, the numbers can be interpreted in several ways that do not favor Obama. For example, given his unpopularity with &quot;uncommitted&quot; voters (no one is uncommitted who expects to vote), having just 39% on his side likely reflects pre-existing leanings. More importantly, if he continues to argue both sides of every question when they debate the economy, he&#039;ll lose whatever presumption in his favor he currently enjoys. I wish he&#039;d been a litigator rather than a professor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, now I *know* you&#8217;ve lost your capacity to judge these things impartially. I watched the debate at home, by myself, on public TV (so without any extraneous graphics or data). It was, at best, a draw. Now, a draw for Obama on foreign policy is a win, so this is nothing to sneeze at. But McCain was much more coherent than you seem to think, and his attacks on Obama were pointed and effective; Obama seldom had an appropriate response. He continued to permit McCain to determine the terrain on which the Iraq argument would be waged, rather than changing the terms from when and how to leave the war—a losing framework for anyone who isn&#8217;t a vet—to casting the situation as a wasteful and interminable nation-building exercise (which would require McCain himself to set conditions for success and a timetable for leaving). McCain killed with his endless reminders that Obama had not gone to the strategically relevant places or met with the relevant leaders. All Obama could do was appear on the ball, which he did nicely and which probably accounts for the positive impression he left. But the debate was aimed squarely at the middle-aged, middl-class white men who, it has now become clear, see McCain as &#8220;a strong leader&#8221; and don&#8217;t get Obama. These are the people in Ohio, Florida and Pennsylvania Obama needs to win over or persuade to stay home. I doubt he made any progress on that count last night. </p>
<p>As for the instant polls, the numbers can be interpreted in several ways that do not favor Obama. For example, given his unpopularity with &#8220;uncommitted&#8221; voters (no one is uncommitted who expects to vote), having just 39% on his side likely reflects pre-existing leanings. More importantly, if he continues to argue both sides of every question when they debate the economy, he&#8217;ll lose whatever presumption in his favor he currently enjoys. I wish he&#8217;d been a litigator rather than a professor.</p>
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